I attended Harold Eberle’s Worldcast conference that included a round-table discussion which was interactive, respectful and healthy. We touched on some fair questions that deserve answers. I asked most of them myself in the past and now I’m starting to hear them multiple times. They are usually intellectual / theological and ask the larger heart question of “why do I need to do this?” I decided to collect them and provide a simple answer. If you think of additional questions or come up with better answers, please add them. Please don’t worry about offending me—you won’t.
I came away from the conference with several impressions:
- There is a door open to the council . . . the real definition of ecclesia is those who go there (Mt 16:18-19).
- Courts and trading floors lay a foundation (walking in a spirit of repentance or purity), but we have to go on to books and a lifestyle of being present in the council and delivering the fruit (binding and loosing).
- There is a place for preaching and teaching the fundamentals, but the real need is stories of delivering the goods from heaven to earth . . . especially from the other six mountains (it’s an experience that works more than a truth or a theology that preaches).
- We have to stop trying to get other people to be priests, prophets and seers for us. Business people have to be pulled into this realm to fully inherit their place in the Kingdom.
- Becoming a seer is everyone’s assignment / invitation . . . it’s for everyone more than a gift for a few. (just like baptism in the Holy Spirit, healing, prophecy, etc.)
- There is a missing piece, i.e., 10’s of thousands want personal mentoring to navigate all this. How is a practical challenge. It’s a leap to go from a book or conference or video to an experience of seeing in heaven.
- The mentality of the pastors tended toward: 1) how to manage / whether to permit it, 2) the theology of whether it’s true, 3) how to preach it and explain it . . . How to experience it themselves was the deeper question . . . some will now and all will eventually.
- Two things I tried to refute:
- There was one sentiment expressed that this was just for intercessors (false)
- some people have a seer gift and the rest of us don’t (false)
- Minds were scrolling through the standard list of reasons of why I don’t need to do this (intellectually). The questions that were raised are interesting and representative and are addressed below.
The only thing wrong with this Q&A approach is that it suggests the gateway to courts and councils is through our heads. Answers to intellectual questions miss the point of the longing in our hearts. Logical answers to tough questions are not enough to convince anyone, but those who have tasted the experience of it still need answers for their “minds,” as we all do. I had all the same question.
Example – First, we have the experience of getting saved, then some time later we understand the finer points of soteriology. Then, when we get that down, we receive the Holy Spirit and years later get around to pneumatology. The reality is that “ology’s” always follow experiences. Hearts usually lead minds—our minds inform but our hearts decide. Our relationship with God is never divorced from some mystery. Many things become clear, but there are always more issues and events that remain in mystery. It’s normal to “see in part.” Our Father is infinite, we’re not. He rewards those who diligently seek him. We never outgrow hunger. “Children” are famous for questions. It’s healthy to ask them.
My story – In my own life, I got saved in high school because I saw something in other people that I longed for in my heart. I just asked how they got it and I “followed.” Every new experience since has been rooted in the same process. I see it operating first, experience it second, and explain it third. We all follow people until we can follow Jesus. Then we find out we were following the Jesus in people all along. In the case of the courts, councils and the seer gift, I saw something in Beverley that was very powerful and encouraging. I experienced it when she prayed for me three years ago. Now, other people feel the same when I pray with them. It doesn’t bother me too much if I only get a “B” on the theological pop quiz because I’m getting A’s from the people I pray for and I’m getting “well done” from my Father. We “taste and see” that the Lord is good. Yet, we are ready to give a gentle and respectful answer to those who ask for “reasons.” Some of the questions can be a bit malicious and pee on what we treasure, but it’s okay. We just give ourselves to those who are ready and want it. The rewards far outweigh a few criticisms or comments.
1 Peter 3:13-16 – Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 14 But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened.” 15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander. [emphasis mine] NIV
Here’s a start
- Does it work? Show me the fruit!
Answer After Beverley prayed with me, I asked her to pray with about 20 friends over a couple of years. These Zoom calls typically ran for 90 minutes and were for people who were stuck in some area and wanted prayer. Beverley and I (mostly Beverley at first) took them to the courts of heaven and asked the Holy Spirit to show us where the resistance was coming from. These people usually had repented for everything they could think of already! It was often generational, but it always got resolved by finding the accusation with seer and prophetic gifts (or by simply asking the person), agreeing with the adversary and, through repentance, asking Jesus to break wrong actions or covenants and cover them with his blood and wash us clean. We also asked the Lord to show us something about their book and restore aspects of their book or destiny that had been stolen by the enemy.
These friends were all strong, stable, intelligent professionals who were genuinely blessed in the courts and thanked me personally. They all received something. We only did courts of heaven for people once with a rare exception. We go the council to participate in the strategies and fellowship of heaven routinely, but once an accusation is dealt with in the courts of heaven, we are free to move into our book. Inheriting our land is a process that occurs over a lifetime with a 1000 detours. Answering an accusation in the courts takes 90 minutes in a single session.
Heart answer – It’s wise to ask about fruit. Prudent people always ask. This question often has roots in the wounding of unanswered prayer. Delayed hope really does make our heart sick while a longing fulfilled is like a tree of life. The new connections made in the courts of heaven and the strategy of dealing with accusations with repentance was like a life line that reconnected people with their Father. The court sessions gave hope, a prayer strategy and faith for results.
- Courts – Satan was cast out of heaven. How can he still be there?
Answer: Satan was cast out of heaven (Rev. 12:10), but he is still at war with the saints on earth (last half of Rev. 12) and overcoming Him is a significant theme throughout the Bible. I wouldn’t say he appears in heaven as much as the accusations are discerned / subpoenaed or required.
- I can come directly to a loving Father anytime I wish. Why are you imposing a legal protocol and making my Father into a “Judge”? Why do I have go through the courts to get to the council?
Answer: Courts of heaven isn’t a requirement for access to the Father. We only relate to Him as judge when we are asking for a decree releasing us from an accusation. When God operates as judge, He’s not judging us, He’s justifying us (Rom. 8:33). He is rendering verdicts that set us free from enemy oppression or bondage. Jesus’ redemption sets captives free. “No condemnation” (katakrima in Rom. 8:1) is a legal term meaning adverse sentence or verdict. If God is for us, who is against us? The answer is the enemy (Rom 8:31-39).
- Generational sin is already covered by Jesus’ finished work on the cross. Why do I have to dig it up again?
Answer: You don’t unless you want to. The reason many people check this area is because they have been blocked and nothing else has worked. If something generational is found, we are appropriating Jesus’ finished work on the cross, similar to salvation. Jesus died for all, but we receive forgiveness and healing when we ask for and appropriate that provision.
- This sounds like the old deliverance or revival ministry where people just got what they preached: people throwing up, falling over, passing out, seeing demons everywhere. It was all a passing fad, so is this! Sort of a mass hypnosis or crowd manipulation. Why should I buy into something so questionable? I’m really tired of preachers coming up with new things that aren’t particularly well grounded scripturally, and in the end, just fade away when the “new” wears off.
Answer: There are some excesses in this movement and it pays to be discerning. It also relatively new and doctrinal issues are still be sorted out. It’s fine to watch and see. Some are prone to be the first fruits or early adopters while others are more conservative. Both are okay.
Heart Answer: The wounding from being misled by a spiritual leader is deep. Yet God’s healing is even deeper. Forgiveness is still the best answer. Things rob our destiny if we’re not careful. Don’t let the enemy steal both your past and future.
- This is controversial. I don’t think it’s time to share it yet?
Answer: It can be controversial. Most new things are. We’re not requiring people to accept this. We’re inviting those who are ready and loving those who aren’t. For myself, I felt the Lord’s permission (even instruction) to write Seers and Doers and help Kings navigate connecting with the priestly side of their ministry. Like other new spiritual experiences, pastors will have to decide themselves what is appropriate for their church. It probably won’t be easy! But, it will be worth it in the long run. For me, the courts, trading floors and council are tools we need practically to make Kingdom progress in our own mountain and to disciple nations.
- Is this just something for intercessors or seers? I can’t see the whole church embracing this.
Answer: We all share the opportunity, invitation and challenge to appear in heaven for our priestly role. It is true that young believers will have more mature people (or 5-fold ministers) do the stuff for them or help them. Eventually we all should be equipped ourselves and shouldn’t expect someone else to do it for us. Those called to the non-church mountains especially need to practically navigate their priestly function to walk out the fullness of their heart and book. Hiring intercessors to do it for us is a stopgap measure.
- Many of the visions being preached are mutually contradictory regarding what heaven looks like? Everyone has his own version of courts and councils. There is not a consistent approach.
Answer: There are some differences and some similarities. Keep in mind the visions that seers get are not doctrinal statements about the physical appearance of heaven. It’s a message from the Father that is meant to be understood and applied in our lives . . . not just preached. There is some confusion on this point and it’s often perpetrated by overly enthusiastic followers.
- Isn’t this just rebranding inner healing, deliverance and prophetic ministry?
Answer: If you are prophetic, have experience with inner healing or deliverance, then operating as a seer in the courts and council will have some familiarity. It’s relevant background.
Heart answer: This question can come from a place of not wanting to admit it’s new and that I need to change and adopt it. My encouragement is to be child-like and allow people and the Holy Spirit to mentor you into the new aspects of it. I had all that background, yet I still consider this new territory. It would not have happened for me without Beverley. The seer dimension is important.
- Council – Why do I have to go there? I’m already seated in heavenly places.
Answer: For most people, being “seated in heavenly places” is a metaphoric, intellectual term for our authority in Christ, as opposed to an experience in heaven through a seer gifting. (see heart answer above in #9)
- Seer – this is just my imagination and I want the real thing, so I am not going to limit it with my own imagination. Shouldn’t I wait for God to come to me instead of going up to heaven and finding Him?
Answer: The seer gift does start with our imagination, but just like the prophetic, the Holy Spirit can guide it and what is seen can be easily judged by the content and fruit (Just like prophecy). Don’t worry, you can’t fake it until you make it. But we do have to start with our imagination and the enemy will always say, “It’s just your imagination.” Said another way, if your unwilling to use your imagination you probably won’t get into your seer gift.
Using your imagination and ascending to heaven to the courts or council also implies a certain assertiveness that the Lord loves (the Bible calls it hunger). We often carry a bias that visions and dreams are imposed on us sovereignly at God’s initiative (they can be). My experience is that those that find him search for Him diligently (try often and are persistent). I was pleasantly surprised how easy it is once I 1) had some practice with Beverley, 2) I was confident in my theology (see Seers and Doers) and 3) grasped the practical approach of starting with my imagination.
- Seer – Why are the things people see and hear all about beautiful dreams or THEIR great potential, etc.? Why doesn’t the council give them cures to diseases to bring back, or answers to world issues, etc.?
Answer: Great question. Many of the testimonies being preached with examples of results do seem trivial or irrelevant in any strategic kingdom sense. Like prophecy, seers start small and work up. It’s with maturity and that we move from revelations to manifestations and miracles. But the promise is clearly for the later. We are binding and loosing what we see bound and loosed already in heaven. It is our assignment to make this practical for life, business, kingdom and nations. Moving from hearers only to hearers and seers has been a huge shift in my own life.
Heart answer: If I’m in need of a miracle there is some level of desperation for things as practical as finances or health. It is frustrating to feel unheard, but the best cure for that is to boldly come before a loving father in the council and get the strategy in person. I’m putting my eggs in that basket instead of waiting patiently while nothing happens and hoping for the best. God loves God-chasers. Our kingly side is bold and entrepreneurial; our priestly side is equally assertive in the Kingdom of Heaven (forceful men lay hold of it Mt. 11:12).
- General – Why does God have to make everything so complicated. It is so hard to enter into all this stuff. The complication eliminates most people from ever obtaining it. Does that seem like the heart of God? I thought he said, “like little children.”
Answer: It can seem difficult and it is impossible without help from the Holy Spirit. But it’s not more complicated than learning and doing anything else that’s new in the spiritual realm. We all struggled learning how to kick sinful habits or tendencies—yet there is a level of maturity where overcoming the flesh isn’t all that hard. Jesus dealt with iniquity at the cross, so it should be all finished and easy—yet we all have to walk it out in practice, and we do!
I’m not particularly adept or predispositioned to be a seer and have a huge bias against mysticism. Yet, I was surprised at how easy it was and how it enriched my devotions, quickened verses, enhanced my understanding of my own book, and magnified my prophetic ministry to other people. Private intercession for other people in the council is something those same people can feel when you’re with them. Some of the people that I pray with think I’m a spiritual giant. My Father and I know better, but they don’t! My own experience is my benchmark for the degree of difficulty and the verdict is “anybody can do this.”
- How do we mentor tens of thousands of people who are hungry to be in God’s courts, trading floors and council?
Answer: Beverley and I used Zoom calls to connect with people internationally. That worked pretty well. The video aspect of it is much better than audio only (body language is a huge part of good communication). Two people praying for one is also a helpful dynamic when possible. Praying for a person in the courts is intensely personal and I can’t imagine people being comfortable doing it in a group setting. Praying for strategies for a nation, business or city does work well in a larger group. We prayed for the Netherlands with 5-15 people on Zoom calls and the biggest danger was rabbit trails. It takes a leader willing to keep it on track.
Some ministries are using conferences or training videos which are mostly teaching and testimonies. They are informative, interesting and helpful, but not an experience.
This is all not really more complicated than salvation, baptism in the Holy Spirit, learning the prophetic, etc. It’s always a mix of teaching and personal mentoring. Thank God for the internet.
- Can you provide some historic examples of exploits of seers and doers in the last 2000 years?
Answer: Peter, Paul, John . . . The general mechanics of any kind of creativity centers around seeing and doing. God doesn’t always get the credit, but He seems to build His Kingdom through both saved and unsaved people. History’s innovators in leadership, politics, the arts, and science have always been connected with their own hearts and God’s heart and they have been visionary in the process. They saw something in the spirit and went out and made the dream come true. Seeing pictures is the language of the hearts; our hearts and God’s heart is creativity’s birthplace.
- Where should I start?
Answer: Here’s my suggestion: have the heart experience for yourself without getting bogged down in the intellectual details. This is much better caught than taught. If you are hesitant, find someone credible and go with them until you’re comfortable. Or, go with me through the 30 sessions in the appendix of Seers and Doers. Beverley’s Metanoia interactive Prayer Manual is a great resource for going to the courts to address generational issues. The audio portions lead you through the prayer – It’s alive!
It’s not a bad idea to read the relevant books and watch some of the conferences and teaching on You Tube. The best books on the Courts of heaven and Trading Floors are:
Unlocking Destinies From the Courts of Heaven by Robert Henderson, 2016
The Trading Floors of Heaven by Beverley Watkins and Robert Henderson, 2018
Metanoia Interactive Prayer Manual (Digital) by Beverley Watkins
The best book on going to the council of heaven is:
Seers and Doers by John Garfield, 2018
The best books in the Biblical theology behind the existence of a council are:
The Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, 2015
Reversing Hermon by Michael Heiser, 2017